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Bill Reel VS Elder Holland – Truth VS Lies

In this Short video you will confront the data on whether Elder Jeffrey R Holland was telling the truth when he stated that the Church was growing faster than ever and experiencing “double digit stake creation every week of our lives”.  What if our leaders intentionally deceive?  What If?

24 thoughts on “Bill Reel VS Elder Holland – Truth VS Lies”

  1. Knowing there is a “Liahona **Children’s** Foundation”, I did a double-take when I saw a “Liahona Foundation” graphic in this video. I expect they are not affiliated with each other.

  2. Of the various video segments, Market E Peterson triggered me the most. Peterson confessed to Metcalf that he lied about BY’s Adam-God teachings to keep members from becoming fundamentalists. Peterson was also one of Arrington’s biggest foes as the Church Historian tried to raise the Church to a more honest standard. With the top 15, the end justifies the means, but to be very clear their lack of honesty isn’t victimless.

    1. Amen! Peterson was the head liar and Pharisee, chief of bedroom police, the main inspiration behind perverted, predatory youth purity and masturbation interviews in private. He enforced Satan’s Plan in the name of Christ. What else was hiding behind all his pomp and pretense which Jesus warned of over and over?
      A shoe-in for SRA?

  3. I love how this is so succinct and telling. It really gets at one of the main reason why I could never participate or believe. Fantastic! Thank you!

  4. Hi Bill I respect you and appreciate what you do. I do feel compelled though to point out that you failed to mention that you and I have a list of the double digit stakes Elder Holland did create in the weeks leading to this off the cuff speech he gave. Maybe you doubt the authenticity of that list but it’s at least worth mentioning. For the benefit of those not privy to our private emails, Bill asked me to ask elder Holland for the list of stakes he created in the weeks prior to his remarks. Elder Holland didn’t respond but asked a member of the 70 to respond for him. He gave us a list, 11 one week, and 14 the next. Can the list be trusted, most here probably don’t think so, but it exists and is worth bringing up. It should also be noted that the number of stakes Holland listed in that talk was something like 3150 when apparently there were at least 3199 at that date. This makes it a little more clear that he was speaking from the cuff, and that he wasn’t attempting to give a detailed statistical report.

    Elder Holland is excitable, anyone who has heard him speak can quickly pick up on this about his personality, on top of that he was giving a rally speech, rally speeches in general commonly focus on success and the positive and typically omit or minimize the negative. and he was coming out of some very exciting weeks in church growth. Calling someone a liar for an off the cuff excited remark they gave during an exciting month is problematic and certainly isn’t charitable. knowing what you know from our emails back and forth i am surprised you approve of this video with your name on it.

    It is true in 2016 we had more stakes than ever before, we had more temples than ever before, we had more members than ever before, in 2014 we had more missionaries than ever before and it is dropping down but in 2016 when he gave this speech the excitement from that was still high on people’s minds. I do think it is fair to point out we weren’t “growing” faster than ever before. It’s larger than ever before but not growing faster.

    As someone who understands cognitive bias you must understand that it is likely that Holland’s mind tends to focus on positive growth indicators and minimize the negative ones that work against his worldview and hopes. Factually he apparently was correct, in the weekly meetings previous he saw double digit stake creations. The idea that he implies this would continue and be the new norm was not correct. Lying is very different from giving an optimistic but bad prediction.

    I am not more charitable with Elder Holland then I am with anyone else. I don’t think Elder Holland is a liar and I don’t think you are a liar. Even though you both say things in excitement that aren’t true sometimes and you sometimes say things without fact checking them thoroughly. It’s human nature to repeat and share things that are exciting and support your views thinking they are accurate when they in fact might not be completely. This is especially true with off-the-cuff remarks. In this case though he wasn’t even giving bad information, he was just doing a horrible job contextualizing the last two weeks he had had and he was mistaken in using those two previous weeks as a prediction of what was to come.

    But then again, saying a person contextualized recent growth trends poorly and projected them erroneously on the future isn’t as fun and eye catching as posting their picture with the caption “liar” in big red letters.

    1. This is helpful. Thank you. These guys are 1) human, 2) doing their best, 3) products of their individual backgrounds, experiences, and paradigms. We all are. In that light, we all have different kinds of biases, ways of explaining ourselves, and lenses by which we view the world. My feelings are that nothing good comes from name calling, labeling, nor caustic comments. In a time when negative feelings are not difficult to find, I opt to turn towards optimism.

  5. BRAVO, Bill! Great quotes from yet another “band of robbers and murders” proving Themselves so.
    From spiritual wifery to Spiritual Bondage and Slavery, only “…the truth will set you free.”

    Religious enslavers extort and exhort, “We can lie all We want, to force your salvation, but you are to pay Us (‘tithing’) and be honest in your dealings and always sustain Us in whatever We do and say, and never ever question Our unending dishonesty and waffling ‘for chri$t,’ or else!”
    Lie upon Lie, Decept upon Decept, here a little, there a lot…
    Uh, Jesus taught against every last bit of that, over and over.

    Eccl 1: 9 “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.”

    Mark E. Peterson was a brutal bully and Liar for the Lord, who preached honesty and obedience and that he was above the purity of the unwashed masses of evil masturbaters and lusters going to Hell. “Only We bedroom and thought police can Save you, for a fee and obedience to Us!” He was only one of many head FAIRisees.

    Jesus told the Pharisees that they were not above the adulterer because they too had “impure” secret thoughts and lusted after women like the next guy, unless they were eunuchs. We were “taught” that Jesus was saying we should not even think an impure thought, that we should listen to leaders tell us so? No, Jesus was blasting the FAIRisees, again.

    Our “christian” concepts of women got very twisted by certain bible authors creating words and stuffing them down God’s throat. Jesus spoke against that. But, we use that “lusting after women” scripture too as just one more big stick to beat each other back into line with, “for Jesus?”

    You get crucified for setting truth straight with Pharisees and their band, or just Burned at the Stake (center) like Abinadi? Where are the “Almas” today when you need them most? True story or not, a good parable on Phariseeism.

    Marky Peterson and Spence Kimball were the inspiration, the discernment direct from Jesus, for heading up the bullying, abusive to deadly but “very inspired” Predatory Bishop youth interviews “to save youth from impurity and abuse.” It’s all from Christ, don’t question Them? WTH?

    The Chief Firm-Foundation LD$ lie is the official “First Vision” version which actually plainly so preciously proves and testifies against itself, crying from the dust, that it is in fact an undeniable outright contradiction, fabrication and intentional fraud. It is the embodiment of what multiple anachronisms look like. You simply must tell “lie upon lie” and hide many truths in darkness to defend the “First Vision.”

    FAIRisees can run the flock of sheeple in dizzying, tiring circles on this all they want with, “There are simply nine slightly varying versions telling different aspects of the same First Vision. Only one First Vision really, and this is the most accurate and complete of all the many vision versions! Dare you question Us with your silly questions and blasphemy against Us?”

    But, the Con-cepts of that best and official fullness vision version contradict the troubling historical facts; first that Joseph proclaimed he already knew all the churches were not true when he went into the grove, to “Prey,” upon us.

    Our now sacred, beloved and worshiped official vision version also blatantly contradicts the ever evolving but then truly Trinitarian godhead with Jesus being the Only physical manifestation of God as so clearly spelled right out and taught in the first versions of the BoM, BoC and LoF.

    The First Fraud, er, Vision is the fraud that proves itself dead wrong. No distractions from truth nor circles to run in any more, once the truth of those simple basic testified facts set you free. But that rabbit hole of this deceptive method goes much deeper, to the foundations of our world.

    The “First Vision” was fabricated and pushed exactly like the bible was built (The Word of Men, not god’s words). twsiting, contradicting, testifying agaisnt itself. Specifically the Gospel of John does this too. Are lying, bullying and enslaving really truly of His Gospel (Good News)? Paul and the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke disagree with many more fantastical things added by “John” and in many places by scribes, including a false ending clearly demonstrated to have been added to doctored transcripts of later versions of Mark.

    “Nothing to see here, move along. These are not the droids you are searching for…” Even the story of Jesus saving the adulteress taken in the very act of adultery and threatened with stoning, was added in much later. Great Christlike story though! That’s my Jesus.

    But don’t forget the pagan-derived “virgin birth” of Jesus added later as well. That and so much more is right in front of our eyes in our own bibles, if we have eyes to see, ears to hear and compare the different books of the bible and can discern His real words of wisdom and truth without a Lauder interfering, using His own biases and words and advice For God. Jesus’ true words are quite basic and not enforcing and damning, well, except against FAIRisees and their “band of robbers and murderers.” And how much of that was added?

    Much of the fantastical tales in John, including that Jesus was always God Himself from the beginning, are absent from or derided by the other “witnesses” who wrote their parts of the bible, and none of any of them whom personally met or knew “Jesus.” Two of them document the fact that Jesus was born of Joseph, giving his genealogy back to king David and Abraham in multiples of 7 generations, proving Jesus’ divine right as the next messiah, like his ancestors were messiahs too, not God.

    These first written “witnesses” of Christ say that Jesus later became the son of God and never was God nor ever became God. Jesus said we were in him and we were in god and to stop seeking the magical kingdom of god everywhere (and through Leaders), that the kingdom was with in us all, and that we would do things greater than he and that children were wiser and greater than the “most Important…”

    How did we miss all of that in Sunday School? So, this was your Sunday School lesson for today. We certainly do have to do some heavy “strengthening” mental gymnastics to keep “Christian” and LD$ lies, contradictions and myths locked tightly into place to save us.

    The Gospel of “John” (like Joseph Smith and the High and Mighty “Saints” today?) borrowed “his” tales from other sources, records and from Paganism and other religions and cultures which had “tales of many, many prior crucified gods” (15 more of them) who were men, teachers or great leaders becoming sons of god or becoming demigods or even gods before or upon cruci-fiction or subsequent resurrections. Some of them too were born of virgins, etc..

    That Greek “saint” named “John,” and others, desired like Joseph Smith and others, to create the ultimate enslaving god and religions, creating the most grand “God to end all gods” Who has the most grandiose plans for us and threats of hell and eternal suffering if we questioned Their divine connection with “God.” They even adopted bits of Luciferianism into their story to force feed you Their Own ultimate Truth.

    Paganism Resurrected? Sounds so very much just like Joseph Smith borrowed his source material, with some of it more inspired than other parts. “Satan’s Plan” is not an original either, though this fascinating concept testifies most strongly against the LD$ Leaders too. Everything they do and teach testifies against Themselves, just like the First Vision, BoM and bible.

    Yes, the bible has most of the same defects and fabrications, even anachronisms which are so natural when things are written much later and naturally enhanced to make them more impressive. Reality and truth are just not impressive often enough. Sounds too familiar now?

    Sounds like the same LD$ narcissistic and sociopaths at work back then too? Secret combinations, secret oaths in darkness? “Awaken to a sense of our awful situation?”
    “Liars and Tithers and False Bearers, OH, MY!”
    “The Book of Mormon, another Testament Against the LD$ Church,” in its scriptoral advice too.

    Don’t get me wrong, there is a lot of wisdom in the scriptures, even wisdom against those scriptures’ own bad parts and against organizations wielding scriptures as twisted sticks handed out to beat ourselves and each other back into line with. Is that of Jesus? No, not at all. Not my Jesus.

    Sheeple want a true leader they can trust to do the thinking and lead them and do everything for them so they can watch TV, be glued to their i-phones or whatever. The flock demands to be saved, and by damn, those in sheep’s clothing always magically appear to deliver. Joseph just happened to have access to what they wanted most – “Truth” and Slave-ation.

    The deeper and real question is, can you yourself wade through good and bad research to sort out the scriptoral truths and wisdom from the BS, the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, the flowing BS from The Mark E. Petersons, Matt Hollands, Rusty Nelsons and Paul H. Dunns of the very “Holey” bible?

    Ether 8: 24 “… ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
    25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.”

    Cult Leaders come in all flavors, even crony capitalism, socialism and such, to save you. We have the very finest “education,” media, “medical” and politicians that money can buy. Fruits, folks, fruits.

    Jesus was warning us about religious and secular cults, and being good to those not enforcing cults, and he said to seek truth to set ourselves free, from physical and mental bondage to enslaving cult mentalities. It’s all there for the taking, or leaving. We don’t have to toss baby Jesus with the filthy, stinky bathwater They try to baptize and drown him in.

    The real Jesus said something like, “If you have eyes to hear and ears to see, you will see enforcers by their fruits, you won’t jump from the frying pan cult into the fire cult, just as you don’t see me doing. Peace out, and be excellent to one another, except to the FAIRisee types who are dogs, swine, wolves, vipers, white-washed Con Men and mote-pickers in fine wool suits. They will blindly lead the blind into the ditch, and They can go straight to Their own very special Hell which They create on earth for those with no eyes to see or ears to hear Truth to set themselves free.”

  6. Anyone seen Bill’s most recent anguished triggered rant on facebook? The guy cannot handle contention, though he likes to dish it out plenty. He claims to know it all. Know what? If you have any questions, you can contact me at [email protected].

  7. Amanda Boggs is a descendant of Governer Boggs. This name is so rare that it cannot be a coincidence. Alternatively, what a coincidence.

  8. Bill, I respect you and I understand that you have fairly recently gone through a major faith transition that is still very raw. Ironically though, this video about how Elder Holland seems quite misleading itself. It quotes Holland, then shows numbers that don’t correlate to what he was saying while pretending they catch him in a lie.

    “We are in the midst of staggering growth in the church, it’s the single biggest problem we have” Note that he didn’t say the growth RATE is increasing year over year. He said the growth was staggering and problematic. The numbers the video shows then show the drop in year over year conversions which has nothing to do with his statement. The church was and is still growing year over year worldwide and if you can see past the misleading graph that is comparing the rate of growth (a topic Holland never claimed to be addressing) and you look instead at just the numbers you can see that Holland isn’t saying anything false here

    “A week ago Thursday we created 15 stakes, we are doing that more or less every week, the week before it was 12.”
    Bill, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you forgot our conversations where you asked me to Email Elder Holland to get details on which stakes were created during these meetings. Or mayb you just didn’t trust the response I got back. Either way I respect you and your integrity and am sure you don’t mean to omit this information but the list I obtained from a member of the 70 is below. Note the number is 14 and 11, not 15 and 12 as he had recalled. Not too bad for an on the cuff recollection of meetings he had been in over the past two weeks though and far from being what an average person without a dog in the fight would consider as a deceitful lie.

    “it will be a little uneven, but the point is we are talking double digit stakes every week.” I understand people being upset by this comment because it is indisputable that this trend he was coming out of was an exception to the norm, not the norm itself and he was foolish in projecting the trend as the new norm. I don’t fault people for making bad predictions when they are excited but I understand how someone with raw negative feelings towards the church would reasonably find fault here.

    “Missionaries, temples, everything, everything we are doing is bigger than it has ever been in the history of the world” though down in 2016 since 2014 which was the largest all time number, the missionary force was 11,975 stronger in 2016 than it had ever been before 2013. (58990 in 2012) We indisputably had more temples, members, and stakes than ever before when he gave this talk. I haven’t checked the numbers but I think we still do so there aren’t any errors in this quote.

    In summary, everything he is quoted as having said seems to be as accurate as you could expect from an off the cuff speech with the exception of the extremely optimistic assumption he made that the double digit stake creation meetings he had recently been coming out of would more or less be the standard. It has proven to be much less.

    1. Mike, yes I am aware of the explanation given you. That explanation seems illogical and irrational if we sit down and discuss it.

      The solution given you is that Elder Holland happened to be in 3 or 4 thursday meetings in a row where stake creation was exponentially high as an anomaly. That multiple weeks in a row the Church leaders ok’d 15, 10, 8 stakes to be created but those three or 4 weeks didn’t match the collective trend nor concluded with that number of stakes created 3 or 4 weeks in a row on the back end.

      But this doesn’t sit in a vacuum. He would have been in that same Thursday meeting for 2 decades. He also would have been involved in numerous conversations about wards and stake closing and he also would have been surrounded by conversations where the Church’s slowed growth were discussed. The person talking to you BS’d you. But your need for it to work out clouded your ability to use logic and to be willing to ask if you had been lied to. The answer they gave you doesn’t add up. Can you see that now?

      If the response you got was true then we would need 30 weeks in a row with no stakes created to balance out the data. And Holland would be there for those too. He knew the Church’s growth was in decline. How could he not?

      1. Ah Bill, there is hurt you are feeling, anger, and resentment. My sincere empathy to you. That said, please consider this thought: dwelling on anything bothersome, bile, or bitter isn’t pleasant. For your own well being, might it be worth letting go and then moving on? Life is sometimes hard enough, but our own individual resolve to look for upbeat and joyful experiences certainly helps us day by day. Just a thought, well-meant and sincere. Best to you. Winter is finally letting go of its hold, how about some fun hiking, rafting, biking and racing?

        1. If you were to live near me and be one of my friends, my guess is you would perceive me as deeply happy, content, and fulfilled. I would guess that is 90% of my life and who I am. The other 10 is a mix of being stressed over two of my children having struggle, stress with work (a job I deeply love BTW), and my interaction with the Church. That Church portion certainly contains some anger and resentment and hurt. But mostly at this point apathy and such a small part of my life that the anger portion is like 1% of who I am at present and my feelings about the world around me. So with all of that said, it seems you missed the mark. And I enjoy helping people wake up from this high demand false fundamentalist religion.

  9. Bill I am a lifelong member I live in Idaho and I went to Coventry England on my mission I was in the m t c when pres bishop was doing unspeakable things with the sisters I became acquainted with your podcast after reading about Tom Phillips and my journey away from the church and into the presence of a loving savior has not been easy all of the bantering on a mile long list of the current actions of the sacred 15 tell me that the truth of the book of either in the Book of Mormon is slowly making its way forward truth is reason and it is in fact eternal and in many of Joseph’s writings we find snippets of truth I liken it to thinking that staying close to the titanic as it sunk would be the best place and most Mormons are hanging tightly to the top of the bow not realizing the suction power that has hold of them in all of your podcasts your treatice on the d and c 129 and 130 made me realize that the god of the l d s faith exists he is real and he does have power he has in fact instructed his elect to lie to murder and to continue in all facets of the preisthood to deceive remember who in the temple tells us we will be in his power if we do not live up to all the covenants we make in the temple that day did you not realize you have inadvertently put yourself in a pretty bad position having made that commitment many times while you were an active member now you seem to be arguing over the results of a wee gee board trick that didn’t turn out as you thought it should have don’t let these guys get to you the lord has great use for your abilities I’m talking the lord of the New Testament not the one in the hat with the rock in it Brigham young was right when he said that an excess of money would take the saints far away from the lord he probably said that right after he handed porter Rockwell the bills they had just printed as he was off to catch and kill another apostate this is a dangerous errand you are on my friend and my prayers and thoughts are with you but liar liar pants on fire is far below your life’s experience stick with your research continue with r f m love your wife and children pray the Lord’s Prayer lean not unto your own understanding but put love in the fore front of all your doings you are not one of many you are in fact one of just a hand full willing to be the voice many of us cowards would like to be please don’t become a trump on us we are counting on you to be eloquent respectful and bold as you have been this is only the second round in a 15 round fight don’t let them rope a dope you I was always told Yoda was based on Spencer w kimball as I read the miracle of forgiveness I recognize that mark Peterson was relaying the same message grant Palmer summed this whole thing up as he tried to save the lost Mormon souls in the salt lake county jail ther is way too much emphasis on your power through righteousness and not enough dependence on the blood of the lamb of God that’s enough corner talk now get back out there and stop leading with your chin

    1. The church isn’t growing. It shows a rate of growth at 1.3% lowest in about 100 years. It also does not contain the growth spikes it once did. and this rate does not take into account the number of members going inactive with disbelief which seems an exponentially growing segment.

  10. I know I’m a few years late to this party, but I’m making my around the DAMU and this is just one of my stops.

    What never ceases to amaze me about the Mike Perry’s of the world and their aching need to find a way to maintain faith, is how that ache causes them to rationalize and excuse even the most blatant bullcrap. Calling Holland’s remark “off the cuff” is apparently supposed to mean it doesn’t really have to be all that accurate, then you try to use two weeks worth of data to suggest he really was accurate after all. But in pursuing that rationalization you have to ignore the very point he is making! He’s claiming huge growth, and stating outright that all that growth is a problem (albeit a good one, he adds) for the church. When in fact the only way to claim such growth is to take a tiny sample in isolation as if it were the trend, which is exactly what he is doing, and exactly what Bill is pointing out that he’s doing. All this huge growth is the entire point and there is either huge growth and there is not. When a person is going to the lengths Holland does there to say there IS huge growth and there is not, that is called lying. And no amount of rationalizing is going to change that.

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