APPEAL OF DISCIPLINARY DECISION SENT TO STAKE PRESIDENT 12.4.18
Dear Leaders of the LDS Church,
This is my formal appeal of my local Stake Presidents decision to excommunicate me. My stake president shared as evidence of the charges of apostasy the following.
1.) My Facebook post stating that Elder Holland lied (Double Digit Stake Creation every week of our lives.
First the evidence of Elder Holland as having lied on not one occasion but on 5 demonstrable occasions
A.) Elder Holland claims to hold the very copy of the book of Mormon that Bethsheba, Hyrum Smith’s wife, had in her possession from which Hyrum Smith the prophets brother read to her and had turned the corner of the page down from where he read. The problem is that the copy Elder Holland holds up in his hand at General conference is distinctly different from the copy in the Church History department claimed to be the same book.
RESOURCES:
– https://www.flickr.com/photos/nickleus/sets/72157623567278714/
– Safety for the Soul conference Talk
– http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/prophets/jeffreyrholland/
B.) Elder Holland when asked about the Church’s contribution to Prop 8 says that the Church did not give “One Red Cent” to the fight against Same Sex Marriage in California. Problem is it gave a reported amount of almost $200,000. Some want to debate over whether it was cash or in kind donations but to battle over rhetoric seems to be a sly way to find a loophole.
RESOURCES:
– https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8
– https://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-karger/mormongate—-the-churchs_b_163016.html
– http://www.missedinsunday.com/memes/lgbtq/proposition-8/
– https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html
– https://www.dailydot.com/irl/mormon-church-gay-marriage-prop-8/
C.) Elder Holland tells a faith promoting story about a missionary who out on his mission is led by the spirit to his older brother who had severed his relationship with his family years earlier. Elder Holland had told this story for years and other General Authorities before him had shared it. The problem is the story was a false faith promoting narrative. Each telling contained different contradicting details and too far fetched too believe of a story-line. Soon after the Deseret News picked up on the story, the far fetched details began to be questioned by critical thinking Mormons and Elder Holland through the Deseret News and Church PR quickly distanced himself from the story. But even his side of how he came to learn the story was inaccurate is problematic.
RESOURCES:
– Cache of Original Story
– https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865685840/Elder-Holland-withdraws-Church-News-missionary-story.html
– Radio Free Mormon Episode detailing the deception
– http://kuer.org/post/mormon-apostle-withdraws-embellished-story#stream/0
– Bill Reel’s questioning the validity before Elder Holland’s retraction
D.) Elder Holland when asked directly whether Mitt Romney would have made penalty oaths in the temple answers NO. Problem, such is a lie.
RESOURCES:
– Youtube Clip showing the lie
– https://www.cityweekly.net/BuzzBlog/archives/2012/06/05/bbc-interview-with-lds-leader-earns-controversy
– https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/7c2tuq/did_holland_lie_semantic_analysis_of_jeffrey_r/
– Jonathon Streeter’s dissection of this event
E.) Elder Holland in a Regional meeting claims that the Church is growing in such a rate that it is creating Double Digit NEW Stake creation “every week of our lives”. The Problem is that the Church every year tells us the number of stakes in the Church at year end of the previous year. Elder Holland made this claim in early 2015 And from 2015 through 2017 the church consistently averaged 1.6 new stakes per week. This makes a fifth lie with this one being deeply demonstrable.
RESOURCES:
– The Youtube video of his claim
– Apologetic response – The owner of this blog is trying to reconcile the claim and as you will see relies on anecdotal data as he struggles to have any real source for the claim further showing how much of a stretch the claim is
– Conversation by Bill Reel searching for a way to reconcile this issue
– Data exploration on this issue
– Bill Reel Facebook post on such
Combine that with what was said in my Disciplinary Council. (An Audio Recording and Transcript exists). What was said was the following
Stake President Carnivale: “You can not call anybody a liar … I don’t think you can call anyone a lair ? ….Apostles …. We hold. Somebody in the position of an apostle or a prophet who we know holds keys”
Bill Reel: Even if they lied?
Stake President Carnivale: Even if they lied!
In other words I am not in trouble for lying but instead telling the truth. In other words It is worse to be a truth teller in this Church with a strong tone then it is to be a habitual liar. In fact being liar and being an apostle in the LDS Church seemingly not an issue but calling a lying apostle out is. I just want to be clear that you recognize that your upholding this local leaders decision verifies that the framing I have laid out here is true.
#2 – My Facebook post that Elder Ballard had also lied.
Elder Ballard stated ““We would have to say, as two Apostles who have covered the world and know the history of the Church and know the integrity of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve from the beginning, there has been no attempt on the part of the Church leaders to try to hide anything from anybody.”””
juxtapose that with Church Historian Steven Snow who said
“My view is that being open about our history solves a whole lot more problems than it creates. We might not have all the answers, but if we are open (and we now have pretty remarkable transparency), then I think in the long run that will serve us well. I think in the past there was a tendency to keep a lot of the records closed or at least not give access to information. But the world has changed in the last generation—with the access to information on the Internet, we can’t continue that pattern; I think we need to continue to be more open.”
We can soften things through using softer language but the reality is that being non-transparent or even less transparent or not giving access to information means that one is with-holding or hiding things.
Mormonism has hid many things. Even it admits such including Joseph Smith lying about the practice of Polygamy along with hundreds of other instances.
#3 My facebook post stating that Elder Oaks himself said he hasn’t spoke face to face with Angelic beings. This was simply a truth as Elder Oaks stated
Youth Asks:
“””What should we pray for to receive the same testimony and/or conversion that Alma the Younger experienced, for our friend who are not members?”””
Elder Oaks answers:
“””I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. “””
Elder Oaks also said on a separate Occasion
Richard Turley:
Another claim we sometimes hear is that current apostles have no right to run the affairs of the church, since they do not meet the New Testament standard of apostles because they do not testify of having seen Christ.
Dallin Oaks:
The first answer to this claim is that modern apostles are called to be witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world (D&C 107:23). This is not to witness of a personal manifestation. To witness of the name is to witness of the plan, the work, or mission, such as the atonement, and the authority or priesthood of the lord Jesus Christ, which an apostle who holds the keys is uniquely responsible to do. “Of course apostles are also witness of Christ, just like all members of the church, who have the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is because the mission of the Holy Ghost is to witness of the Father and the Son.
Again I don’t see any space to claim what I said was inaccurate. Certainly you are welcome to correct me here that one of the 15 did speak to Jesus but my assumption is that such things both have not occurred and your preference would be to couch a non-visitation as too sacred to share.
Unless LDS Leaders are willing to be honest and transparent about our faith’s false faith promoting history and vulnerable about the unnecessary harm they do to people, simply to up hold a false narrative and an over-embellished authority, the decision to excommunicate me probably ought to be upheld. I will take said upholding as admittance that be healthy and honest simply is not within the purview of the Church at this point in the Church’s history. Sad and deeply unhealthy but I am now at a point in my life where I have lowered deeply my expectations of its goodness to live with the fact you may never be able to be healthy as a faith.
It will be interesting to see as time goes by what changes Mormonism must make to survive in an information age. My guess is we will do the following
– learn slowly to tell our story honestly, though such leaves little miraculous left in our narrative.
– Give women a much stronger voice in administering within our faith.
– Find theological space to be inclusive of legally married LGBT folks and welcome their gifts .
– Tell healthy stories about those who leave the faith having honestly arrived at the conclusion that Mormonism is not what it claims
– Recognize that we over reached on how effective the Holy Ghost is and will in turn develop healthier policies around interviewing children behind closed doors along with more safe space for people to disagree and to admit that we (leaders and members) believed a lot of things thinking it was the Holy Ghost and the Mind and will of the Lord only to admit it wasn’t!
As my Stake President and the others in that room made clear – My integrity is fully intact. My honesty was never in question. This has always been much more about you and your honesty and integrity.
Sincerely,
Your Brother in the Christ of faith
Bill Reel
Bill – At the end of your “appeal” post you say that your integrity is intact and your honesty is not in question. With respect, I must disagree. I’m sure you are aware that the Handbook 1 definition of apostasy includes repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate opposition to the church or its leaders. Something you have clearly done, and something you have intentionally failed to communicate to your readers is the basis for your Church discipline. The Church is excommunicating you for that, not for lying. Therefore, repeatedly making the claim that your statements are accurate does not actually address the real thing at issue and is misleading. As I’m sure this is not lost on you, your honesty and integrity are clearly not intact. As a side note, you might study the differnces between a lie, a mistake, and an opinion. It would help resolve your irrational and borderline obsessive fixation on the statements you quote above. I hope you find your way back to the Lord.
even if the “against” is pointing out their lies? and deception? huh
The Mormon Church excommunicating someone for “acting in clear, open, and deliberate opposition to the church or its leaders” doesn’t give the church leaders any more integrity than they otherwise had.
Sometimes “acting in clear, open, and deliberate opposition to the church or its leaders” is the right thing to do, especially since church leaders are fallible.
People in healthy organizations, religious or otherwise, should be able to call out those members, including leaders, who are doing the wrong things.
Bill,
I want to throw in my support for your appeal. It’s not something I could do and yet it seems right for your circumstance. You certainly have the higher ground. Good luck. Thank you again for helping me in my own journey. Not a faith crisis for me. My faith increased dramatically upon learning the lies.
Again, good luck and may the Lord warm your shoulders.
Bill Reel is one of the STUPIDEST podcasters out there. His historical ignorance and pure stupidity is insufferable, his massive ego was his downfall. He is the laughing stock all over the Mormon internet right now. He constantly lies and his hypocrisy is unbelievable. He has the gall to criticize Elder Holland for his Stakes creation comment and yet Bill said that “thousands” are getting ready for disciplinary court. What utter hypocrisy on Bill’s part. I’ll say what lots of people want to tell him Bill, there is no one named “Bethsheba”(you spelled that wrong, among other words) it’s “Bathsheba” and she wasn’t married to Hyrum Smith, Bathsheba was married to his cousin, George A. Smith. Are you going to apologize for your stupidity? Please broadcast it! I’ll give you another example of his stupidity. Elder Oaks is NOT talking about not ever seeing Christ, he is talking about having an experience like Paul or Alma the Younger, which was so dramatic. I know your so stupid that you can’t figure what I said out so i’ll break it down, Elder Oaks is saying he and the other Apostles have not had a dramatic experience like Paul or Alma the Younger, which is not to say they haven’t seen Christ. Get it? You have no original thoughts, no research abilities and no critical thinking skills. Get over yourself. I doubt you will as your monumental ego won’t allow but for real, get a life.
come on the podcast and have a 4 hour conversation where you help me see I am historically inaccurate. Is this where we play the cricket noises?
That is incoherent nonsense. Here’s an idea, go back to school and learn to write properly and think clearly. I told you instances in my post where you are clearly wrong and historically inaccurate, Apologize Bill, for once in your life get some integrity and historical honesty.You can’t keep playing this “the Church is corrupt” card. Don’t continue to be ignorant of the Church’s history. I know you suffer from Dunning-Kruger syndrome, but come on Bill, grow up.
Alonzo,
Thank you for you BRILLIANT comments! It’s also obvious Bill has no integrity as he recorded the meeting. Your right, what a condescending and ego driven person! “To be learned is good if”, such a difference between knowledge and intelligence.
Alonzo,
Please accept Bill’s invitation to go on his podcast and record it yourself to prevent any deceptive editing on his part. If he is deceiving people, then someone needs to rebut him with something more than a comment on his website.
I did rebut him, but he’s too stupid to realize it. What a shame
Come on alonzo. Accept the invitation and have a chat with Bill. You can do it. … unless, your protestation is showing that you can’t…
But I think you can.
Alonzo, don’t be a douche! I appreciate your feeling to need to “stand for something” here… but before you go throwing stones you might want someone to proof read your tangent for simple grammatical errors before you post something like that. I’m not taking a position if Bill or the church is right on the issue at hand, but it is clear that your ego is certainly way over inflated!
Some grammar police stuff. You are sending this to lawyers, after all:
“In other words It is worse to be a truth teller in this Church with a strong tone then it is to be a habitual liar. In fact being liar ..”
In other words, it is worse to be a truth teller in this Church with a strong tone than it is to be a habitual liar. In fact being liar ..
Glad you are appealing…
I would have someone read through this and help you with your wording and punctuation. I see much need for improvement to make this a stronger letter and case for your arguments.
Bill. It is your tone and goal which is the issue. You are coming across an one angry apostate whose aim is to bring down the church. They will not let you back in, probably never. It sounds to them like a publicity stunt. Go your way, be done with it. People leave the Catholic church all the time – a church which in its cannon claims to be the only true church on earth. They may be upset with certain social aspects of the church (abuse scandals) etc, and understandably cannot just set that aside. But they don’t seem bent up over history and theology. Be done, enjoy what’s left of your life before the oblivion comes.
Bill,
You mentioned on camera that you wanted an appeal denial letter … over the signatures of the FP. That will probably not happen unless you demand/require it.
Sam did not get any letter whatsoever from the FP. In fact, his SP refused to let Sam even VIEW the appeal-denial communication the SP received … from whom? We don’t know anything. The denial could have issued from the COB janitor … for all we know.
I made this similar suggestion (below) to Sam (who knows me personally quite well) … anticipating he would get nothing from the FP. Sam chose to ignore my suggestion and got what I anticipated from the FP = nothing. You will probably ignore this as well. Just trying to offer you the benefit of my personal brain farts, FWIW:
Dear First Presidency,
This is your NOTICE of my explicit Terms & Conditions of my Excommunication Appeal filed with you, the First Presidency.
I hereby demand and require that you communicate your Appeal Decision addressed to me personally and in writing, and authenticated by your three wet-ink signatures.
I shall consider any other form of communicating your appeal decision to me as unsubstantiated HEARSAY rumor carrying no force or effect whatsoever. The definition of HEARSAY incorporated herein explicitly includes any form of delivering your appeal decision through my former Stake President or via any other representative or agent.
You are generously allowed THIRTY DAYS from the date of this NOTICE to effect delivery of your signed appeal-denial letter to me personally.
In the event you DEFAULT and do not deliver a signed letter to me within thirty days, your DEFAULT will be considered to be your tacit GRANTING MY EXCOMMUNICATION APPEAL to reverse the effect of my excommunication, and to immediately reinstate my Church membership in full fellowship with the Saints.
If you need more than THIRTY DAYS to issue your written, signed appeal decision, you must request an extension of time in writing, addressed to me personally at this mailing address:
Bill Reel
123 Main St
MyTown, UT
Signed, Bill Reel … before a Notary would be worthwhile.
========
I am an engineer … not an attorney … so you might wish to contact the proprietor of quitmormon.com for competent advice on how to paint the FP into a corner and force them to TAKE PERSONAL GODDAMNED RESPONSIBILITY for having your SP excommunicate you, Bill. That is the LEAST those Spiritual Dwarfs owe you.
If the purpose of the appeal is an attempt to hold the FP more accountable and to shed more light on the toxic actions of this church, then I applaud it. But don’t think for a second that you have a legitimate case for appealing. The text of your appeal itself further seals your fate. You are not being excommunicated for anything other than apostasy (as defined by the LDS church), which you clearly qualify for. I don’t agree with the church’s definition of apostasy, but based on that definition, you fit the bill. No pun intended.
Further, your 60 minute speech did nothing to defend against your “apostasy”, but I still think it was a homerun, because you effectively digested the breadth and depth of the church’s issues into one concise audio clip. Well done, I wish we could get every member of the church to sit down and listen to the whole thing.
Keep fighting the good fight, brother.
The Mormon church is the only church that excommunicates its members at an alarming rate. No other church wastes their time spying on its members and excommunicating them.
When did Jesus or his Apostles go around excommunicating members???
I take that as proof that the gospel is true. Maybe the church is being attacked?
Good point about Jesus and the Apostles not going around excommunicating.
I believe Scientologist and JWs do quite a bit of spying, following and shunning. And perhaps excommunicating them. Maybe that means those churches are real…?
Bill:
Because Mormon Discussions is a “free press,” inane, name calling and not helpful comments like those from Alonzo (“pure stupidity and massive ego”) and ole jensen, who thinks Alonzo’s comments are “brilliant” are allowed. Why are they even posting here? They should retreat back to their home ground where there is less honest discussion and little dissent that is even tolerated.
You well knew that your time in the church (in which you served faithfully for so long) was over from the start of the formal disciplinary process and that the court and the appeal are really your way of leaving a paper trail and a parting shot at the church you thought were joining many years ago, but which turned out to be so disappointing once you starting peeling back the leaves. Integrity rather ego has everything to do with it. I believe you’re one of the smartest people in the room. Sorry you’ve had to go through all this.
I agree with Norm B.
The appeal will be rejected. Simply because the lia claims went public. Doesn’t matter if true or not, but the process is to go via Stake president up to first president. Once you come out publically against an apostle, or call him a lier, they will excommunicate you as an enemy of the church. Just how thing are.
This atheist nevermo just became a premium subscriber after discovering this podcast a few days ago and listening to Bill’s excommunication unfold. I am fascinated (and repelled) by LDS culture, and am really proud of Bill for speaking truth to power despite the church standing against him while he seems to be a faithful member. Wishing you all the best.
Bill, I’ve followed your podcast for quite a while, and I’m always impressed with your search for truth and honesty. I had been waiting for you to come to the same conclusion that I came to about the church’s dishonesty and bad influences on some (all?) of us. I was so proud of you when you said you finally stayed home one Sunday!
I’ve been so upset and saddened by you’ve been treated by people who don’t understand what you went through that I haven’t been able to even post here until now. 😢 But now it’s time to tell you how much many of us love you and care for you and your family. Best wishes.
Bill – you are absurd. Why contest membership status in a church that you no longer support. Why are you appealing a decision to excommunicate. It merely formalizes your decision to leave the church. Why do you care what a “false” church does. You seem obsessed with the church because deep down you still believe its true – otherwise why all the angst. Your life would be better spent joisting with some other windmill. If the church is true – you are hosed. If its not true – then big deal and quit fixating on it. But choose wisely. Eternity last a very long time.