Today on the Cognitive Dissidents Podcast we dive into what is Dogma and why Dogma is bad? and specifically how unhealthy systems distance their dogma from criticism and how the mechanisms play out.
Resources:
Youtube Video of Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson Part 1
Youtube Video of Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson Part 2
Quotes from LDS History declaring Temple ordinances unchangeable
From August 2001 Ensign (page 22), in big bold print above a large colorful portrait of Joseph Smith: “The Prophet Jospeph Smith taught, ‘Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed.'”
“No jot, iota, or tittle of the temple rites is otherwise than uplifting and sanctifying. In every detail the endowment ceremony contributes to covenants of morality of life, consecration of person to high ideals, devotion to truth, patriotism to nation, and allegiance to God.” Apostle James E. Talmage, The House of the Lord, 1968, p. 84
He set the temple ordinances to be the same forever and ever and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them.” Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol.4, p. 208
some members wonder if the ordinances can be changed or adjusted. These ordinances have been provided by revelation, and are in the hands of the First Presidency. Thus, the temple is protected from tampering.” W. Grant Bangerter, executive director of the Temple Department and a member of the First Quorum of Seventy, Deseret News, Church Section, January 16, 1982
the endowments have never changed and can never change; as I understand it; it has been so testified, and that Joseph Smith Jr., himself was the founder of the endowments.” Senator Reed Smoot, Reed Smoot Case, vol. 3, p. 185
And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof, and the place whereon it shall be built.” Jesus Christ Himself, Doctrine and Covenants 124:27-28, 40-42
“The Gospel can not possibly be changed…. the saving principles must ever be the same. They can never change…. the Gospel must always be the same in all of its parts…. no one can change the Gospel… if they attempt to do so, they only set up a man-made system which is not the Gospel, but is merely a reflection of their own views…. if we substitute ‘any other Gospel,’ there is no salvation in it…. the Lord and His Gospel remain the same–always.” Prophet’s Message, Church News, June 5, 1965
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You’ve misinterpreted what Joseph and the others say, again. The ordinances haven’t been changed, dumbass. It’s good to know that Bill supports the abuse of women, the Church made changes to help women but Bill supports the old way. What a awful human you are, you should be ashamed of yourself, again. You have 7 quotations but only 4 have anything to do with Temple ordinances. Good job, brainiac.
The first temple ceremony in 1836 only allowed men. They “sealed” men to men. It waa patterned after the Solomon temple. When Smith became Mason, his inner circle were so happy and commented ‘officially’ that he had restored the true Mason ceremony. EVERY ordinance was CHANGED. They kept men being sealed to men until 1900. That has been changed.It was such an important ordinance that no longer was even an ordinance. Adam God was taught at the veil until 1904 in St. George. If a mormon prophet professes Adam is God and says the entire world is foolish, and now who is the fool? Brigham Young or those who believe he’s a prophet? It can’t be both.
You’ve bungled that all up. You’ve been lied to by Bill for too long. There were no sealings done in Kirtland, as it was a time only Temple. That didn’t come later until Nauvoo when men and women were sealed to each other. I suspect you’re talking about the law of adoption, which God revealed to Wilford Woodruff in 1894, not 1900, to discontinue. God reveals line upon line and I am not, unlike you and hacks like Bill going to judge people from the past based on our understanding of today. Adam/God theory had nothing to do with exaltation and wasn’t an ordinance anyways so they got rid of it. It was a lecture, not an ordinance
Bill posts about dogma but won’t question anti Mormon and anti intellectual dogma, I find that curious and hypocritical.
You raise some fair points, perhaps you and Bill should hash it out together on a podcast episode. I’m pretty sure he would be open to that sort of thing.
Judging people on the past with todays understanding? I’m judging their retarded god. No wonder the ‘prophets and apostles’ get it so messed up. They are always waiting for further light and knowledge. McKonkie looked like an idiot and blamed it on todays understanding. It can’t hold up. Fools I say. And that would include you. Yesterday the name Mormon was something to be proud of and today? It’s a victory for satan. I would laugh out loud at this new ‘Revelation’ accept for the fact so many are hurting. I am not one of those. It’s only been one big wonderful upside for me as I no longer believe in the point, retarded god of mormonism.
Come out to do a recorded interview and I will give you plenty of time to show me where I have gone off track. But that will also involve me asking you logical follow up questions and you having to defend your perspective
You have consistently shown your lying, ignorance and utter disregard for the suffering of women. I don’t need to come on your podcast to again show you how deeply wrong you are, you do it to yourself
Whizz, You keep making assertions but you seem disconnected from actually defending them. If your unwilling to defend your position and simply want to rant and impose your attitude, well, sadly all watching sense you actually hold a weak position and one that screams adolescent immaturity. but by all means continue.
Where have I lied?
If your position is true and mine faulty why not defend your view and save souls?
Why such vitriol?
Awww, sounds like a wasted opportunity to set the record straight. *Sigh*
explain?
Whizzbang, does that mean know-it-all? Trying to one-up apologists (Pharisees)?
Whizz, this is just the worst kind of sophistry. Sarcasm mixed with disingenuous jabs, and a mish-mash of logical fallacies.
Squirrel!!!
As a woman, Gee would have been nice to have the LATEST updated version of the endowment ceremony when I went through for the first time!
NO, No the covenants haven’t changed at all. Not at all.
I agree! Bill should know better but he judt doesn’t. Fundamentalists like Bill won’t allow them to change,so take up your gripe with him
And you’re supposed to be an active LDS member?
I was excommunicated for telling the truth with directness. So not an active member though it is my tribe. thanks for writing.
You didn’t tell the truth but thanks for lying again.
point out my lies? making accusations is easy. but your being an asshole and while you are free to be an asshole, your not free to be one here. so either be speicifc about where I have lied and be respectful or risk being banned here for disrespectful behavior.
My comment was to Whiz, not you Bill.
I’ll point out one lie. Bill said that the decision to ex him came from SLC, now he said on his FB, and we knew this all along, that it was his Stake President’s decision all along
This is what he wrote “So I had to send my appeal to my stake president who assured me he forwarded it along. I get a call tonight from my stake president saying my appeal was denied but that he has been instructed not to show me the appeal denial. What a [expletive] up system. So a system that comes from Jesus has the person{Bill] appealing through the person{the Stake President] whose decision[Not SLC] your appealing and then that same person is telling you your appeal has been denied with no evidence he ever sent it on……”
You’re just not a “high profile persona” as you thought you were you lying, ignorant POS. Don’t be desperate for attention that make stuff up.
Banning someone on a podcast about dogma, I know you’re too stupid to get it but that’s irony. Do you know what irony is Bill? I know it’s a big word!
Dear “whizzbang”: are you stupid professionally, or is it just a hobby?
I’m still waiting to ear your point
*hear
Whizzbang,
Good call on declining a podcast with Bill.
A smart snake knows once the eagle gets it up in the air, the battle is over.
Nice work, making a typo in a post where you deny being stupid.
There’s no point arguing with you- you’re only here to be a jackass. My guess is you’re a Republican and a Trump voter. Want to know why? It’s because you think acting like a dishonest idiot is the same as being clever.
Whiz,…you went into an ad-hominem attack here. That destroys yours position. It provokes defensiveness, and takes the focus off the discussion and places it adversarially on people.
A comment on what you’ve said regarding the temple.
I remember once putting my hand to my throat and pantomiming slitting my throat rather than divulge something. Several years later, in the same ceremony, that completely vanished.
The ordinance WAS changed procedurally.
I also remember being washed and touched on certain parts of my body. Several years later, in the same ceremony, that part completely vanished.
The ordinance WAS changed procedurally.
Perhaps you are referring to the fact that the ordinance still exists, regardless of its internal changes? With that argument, you could take the ordinance of baptism, and instead of having someone immersed in water, you could have them eat a chicken salad and call it baptism. That would be an obvious procedural change, would it not? But would that still be baptism?
At what point does the ordinance change? It seems to me that procedural changes DO constitute changes.
But let me be frank here. I don’t think you are a serious listener. If you are, your abusive remarks strongly support the very foundation of what Bill indicates: having an inability to focus on the topic at hand rather than becoming entrenched in supporting a position because you consider yourself “right” at all costs.
So sad that you attack the person’s character instead of bringing up a real argument. That’s because there is none.
You’re only showing what kind of Cristian and the person that you are. You just describe yourself and your insecurities.
Hard to dispute any of your conclusions.
This is exactly what our church needs a mechanism or a safe place to openly question the current dogma.
The best podcast I have ever heard! Mormon’s need to realize that our church is no different than any other fundamentalist groups!
Agree. This is one of the best Bill has ever put out. It clearly shows how change does not happen from “inside” and how the “insiders” always view their position as “the absolute correct” position (dogma). This podcast is so timely in so many ways! This is an outstanding presentation!
Sam Harris really loses it on this point. It has baffled me how many people leave religious dogmatic Cults only to join the Marxist or whatever secular dogmatic Cult in the name of forcing goodness for the greater good, for the good of those greater than all ewe fleeced and soon to be slaughtered sheeple.
Govt dogma is More deadly than religious dogma historically too. Why? Because those who become greater than all, including God, become more dangerous than “God” and those “called of God” to bully, abuse and whatever. Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
Yes, govts also use religion to strike fear into people, whatever it takes to force and enforce the greater good. Govt-media-“education” dogma Trump religious dogmatic Cult Leaders.
Slavery – Narcissistic Govt dogma Trumps (Pelosi, etc…) religions here too… They have the firepower to become more than God’s right arm on earth, to reign with blood and terror to buy up popes and priests and militarys and FDA, AMA, CDC…
Please leave your eyes closed and don’t count the Military Industrial Complex or their Food and Drug Industrial Complex which are both Saving us with their force and “wisdom.” Freaking Satan’s Plan on ‘roids.
Blind sheeple dupes worship it either way, from govt or religion, arguing on the lesser of two evils/Gods to vote for, religion or govt, by force???
Oh, and we forgot a lot more things with govt dogma such as the “War on… drugs, terrorism, cancer, disease………….. which make it all worse not better. But they all make a hell of a lot of money off of frightening and terrorizing the sheeple, not counting the constant genocide the sheeple praise which saves them.
These are the ultimate and “only True” terrorists who promise them Salvation if the “Obey and don’t question since the debate IS over.”
“Good sheeple. Settle down, drink your fluoridated Kool-aid and and go back to sleep watching our media. You love being obedient sheeple.”
Same shit, more intensity, different sugar coated atavistic and more beautiful gift wrap than the lesser of these two evils. Sick crap to swallow so anxiously and blindly. Cult. The true Fascist (marriage of govt and industry) DOGMA for the sheeple to genocidally sacrifice too and support with their slave labors.
Bill,this podcast clarified more clearly the dangers of all unchallenged dogmas,both religious and secular. We live in a time where we can find ourselves awakening and connecting the dots at many levels. Thank you for your perspective and for giving me more food for thought. Discovery is freeing and encouraging. I now am able to to recognize where I have allowed myself to be endoctrinated. Open discussion is liberating. Namaste.
Love this discussion, Bill!
Thank you, Bill! Love this!
Whizzbang you’re a real horse’s ass. I so hope you’re a Stake or Ward Missionary (or maybe even working on Temple Square) you’re EXACTLY what is needed to drive more and more people out of “the Church”. You may think you’re a warrior for God….but, if there is a God – I would imagine he’s quite embarrassed by your behavior.
Bill……
This podcast is one of the best. You have drilled down into some of the GUTS of the real problem.
Love your work mate!
It’s a winner and a keeper for me, Bill. As a 5-year outsider after more than a quarter of a century in, I know that my inside granddaughters will have better Temple experiences than I did, partly because of my loud lamenting. Small win. Thanks Bill!
It’s a winner and a keeper for me, Bill. As a 5-year outsider after more than a quarter of a century in, I know that my TBM granddaughters will now have better temple experiences than I did, partly because of my loud lamenting about misogynistic material in the endowments. Small win. Thanks Bill!
Bill, this is such an important and exceptional podcast and I found it emotionally impactful, but I think more discussion is warranted. As I look at religions who have lost their dogma they have also lost their potency. Attendance rates drop and commitment falls close to zero. It appears that a significant portion of the world’s population yearns for dogma. Could it be that spiral dynamics is applicable in this discussion?
Bill, I believe secular or nonreligious dogma is just as harmful as religious dogma. Some people stick to their political views with dogmatic zeal. For example, constructive criticism is not permitted on certain liberal topics and if you are identified as disagreeing with those progressive views then you are subject to ridicule, marginalization, and even physical harm.
except God is less able to be challenged in a believers mind than a Political leader.
Religious dogma and political dogma are changed by the same process… External pressure.